I'll admit first hand that I don't know alot about Williamson. I saw her on Oprah a long time ago. At first I was very excited about her cuz she seemed spiritual and even led a prayer on TV!! Something unheard of on afternoon TV shows. Then later a lot of red flags went up all around her for me. Jesus said that the sheep will know his voice. The stuff she was saying wasn't sounding like him at all.

It was very "new age" and something I cannot embrace. The peace that surpasses all understanding I believe is found in the words of Christ. He has not only promised me his peace...he's given it to me. I don't have to read man's (or in this case a woman's) book to find that peace. Jesus is called the Prince of Peace. Why would I want to go elsewhere Andy? His peace surpasses all understanding.

We are taught from an early age that if we want to make it in life, we have to work hard. That life involves pain and struggle, that we have to earn love and acceptance; and that, if we want to come out on top, we have to fight our way there.

To me, there are two different things here.

Should we work hard to become the best we can be? Yes. Does that always entail physical labor? No. Can we grow without some amount of pain? No. Is pain all there is to growing? No. Do we bring pain on ourselves and others that serves no purpose? Yes.

The second part of what I see there is the "love and acceptance". Love and acceptance should never be a matter of work, struggle. Nor are they something that needs to be earned. If a person demands any of that for their love and acceptance, it doesn't exist for them anyway.

I like your overall philosophy here AndyB but I do believe that you can't just sit back and accept everything. You do need to struggle for some things. One example, two men are diagnosed with the same life threatening disease. One decides that it is just in God's hands and accepts whatever will happen. This man dies. The other man decides he is going to live and does everything mentally and physically he can. He struggles, he suffers, he lives.

I'm not religious so I can't say what happened to the man who died. I do know the man who struggled lived to see his grandchildren.

Do you know the quote from williamson that is frequently misquoted to Nelson Mandela?

I tend to cringe at references to God, though, so I input my own understanding at those spots, and kind of skip over the wording. The idea is the same, and that's what I think matters.

Link

I do believe that you can't just sit back and accept everything. You do need to struggle for some things. One example, two men are diagnosed with the same life threatening disease. One decides that it is just in God's hands and accepts whatever will happen. This man dies. The other man decides he is going to live and does everything mentally and physically he can. He struggles, he suffers, he lives. I'm not religious so I can't say what happened to the man who died. I do know the man who struggled lived to see his grandchildren.

I see what you’re saying Jill. But I think there’s a difference between effort and struggle. Struggle has negative connotations, like desperation, and such negativity is held in the mind. Whatever we face in life, I don’t believe we have to “struggle”.

In the scenario you described with the two men, if the second man had been an advanced soul, then if he had decided he was going to live and do everything mentally and physically he can, (i.e. he would apply a positive frame of mind, which in turn would lead him to do certain things differently physically too), then he might have lived to see his grandchildren, but would not necessarily have needed to struggle - within himself. That’s the point I was trying to make. Struggle is a mental attitude, a negative one at that, and we can rise above it from within. We can reach a place of complete acceptance and trust, not only of the conditions we face, but also of the fact that we are eternal spirits, and that death is the beginning of something wonderful anyway.

(I personally believe that a positive frame of mind aligns our perception of life with the Truth – which is inherently positive. An advanced soul will therefore naturally perceive things positively, will have great reverence for life, and won't struggle with it. He or she can find a sense of peace, even in the midst of severe calamity or external discord.)

I suppose these principles therefore refer to an advanced soul, in my view. Most people struggle in life, and we don’t seem to have much choice regarding our feelings, especially during ‘low cycles’ or when facing calamity or hardship. I’m a bit wary about the word “choice”, to be honest. I think it’s more a question of spiritual growth. If we’re struggling at the moment with certain conditions in life, then in a few years time we might not struggle within ourself at all, even though we might be facing exactly the same external conditions. (Maybe that's our soul's deeper goal. We might face the same conditions in a few lifetimes, and yet won't struggle with them.) We can’t really help how we feel, ultimately, just as we can't do much about our physical age, and I think the best we can do is try and learn to accept exactly how we feel, at all times, whilst not judging ourself negatively.

When deciding which conditions we should accept and which we should strive to change, the classic ‘Serenity Prayer’ comes into its own: “Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

I don't have to read man's (or in this case a woman's) book to find that peace. Jesus is called the Prince of Peace. Why would I want to go elsewhere Andy?

You shouldn’t have to go looking elsewhere, KFC. You’ve already found your own personal groove in the Bible, and that’s where you are most comfortable. I’m sure the Bible will provide you with a hearty meal until the day you die, for this particular lifetime, and that's a good thing. The Bible and Christianity is your cup of tea, but it’s not everyone’s, just as Marianne Williamson’s book isn’t your cup of tea.

I was recommending the book to other people who might be seeking, and who might happen to be on her ‘wavelength’. I think that fundamentalist Christians would turn in horror at some of the things she writes. A God of unconditional love, goodness and grace is incompatible with an exclusive Christian view. It is true that we’re all on different stages of the path, and not everyone is ready for certain points of view.

The second part of what I see there is the "love and acceptance". Love and acceptance should never be a matter of work, struggle. Nor are they something that needs to be earned. If a person demands any of that for their love and acceptance, it doesn't exist for them anyway.

I agree with you Ted. I think if we can’t love another for who they are, and if we can’t be loved for who we are, then it’s not the highest form of love - which is unconditional love. We shouldn’t need to struggle or “try to be good”, in order to feel a sense of self-worth and value.

Marianne Williamson expresses this principle in her book ‘A Return to Love’. She writes: “As children, we were taught to be “good” boys and girls, which of course implies we were not that already. We were taught we’re good if we clean up our room, or we’re good if we make good grades. Very few of us were taught that we’re essentially good. Very few of us were given a sense of unconditional approval, a feeling that we’re precious because of what we are, not what we do. And that’s not because we were raised by monsters. We were raised by people who were raised the same way we were. Sometimes, in fact, it was the people who loved us the most who felt it was their responsibility to train us to struggle. Why? Because the world as it is, is tough, and they wanted us to make good. We had to become as crazy as the world is, or we would never fit in here. We had to achieve, make the grade, get into Harvard. . . . Yet by struggling this way, what we lost was a sense of our own power. And what we learned was fear, fear that we weren’t good enough, just the way we are.”

Demosthenes, the quotes you shared from Marianne Williamson are good, and sum up her views well. I think her views describe a mere glimpse of Truth, and even though the meat of her message is on the ball, naturally there's still room for growth and for more insights. I believe that a big part of our journey is about considering different points of view, and searching for more insights, until we feel that we’re gaining a better picture of Ultimate Reality. By definition, reality is so ‘big’ there’s always more to learn. But it's all a personal journey, and whatever we see or hear, we can make up our own mind.

I think that fundamentalist Christians would turn in horror at some of the things she writes. A God of unconditional love, goodness and grace is incompatible with an exclusive Christian view.

How so? I believe that God is a God of unconditional love, goodness and grace. I'm not "horrified" at what others believe. I used to believe that stuff too.

He's not sending any to hell if that's what you mean. We go there because we choose to. He sets before us life and death. He's the just judge who will hand over the sentence at the end. But that does not minimize his unconditional love at all.

I do know the man who struggled lived to see his grandchildren.

ya, but the other man who died....not only had a change of address but got to see his long deceased relatives going way back.....to even before he was born....

I believe we're the ones living in the land of the dead. The other side is the land of the living.

I believe we're the ones living in the land of the dead. The other side is the land of the living.

I guess that is where the person faced with death has to decide between what he believes and what he knows. My grandpa knew he wanted to live to see his grandchildren. Also, if the other side is eternal, that would mean time here is a lot more precious in my book.

If that man didn't make it to heaven, I don't want to go either.

I believe that God is a God of unconditional love, goodness and grace. . . . He's not sending any to hell if that's what you mean. We go there because we choose to. He sets before us life and death. He's the just judge who will hand over the sentence at the end. But that does not minimize his unconditional love at all.

I think the doctrine that all non-Christians will be punished in hellfire is somewhat off the ball. It's a lot worse than Hitler's exploits, if we're honest with ourself, considering that the Bible also teaches that God chooses who becomes a Christian in the first place. It is true that many people reach the grave with no inclination or desire toward Christianity or Jesus at all, even though they are sound, good hearted, humble people, and who may have lived an integral life, and who may have searched deeply for a spiritual path that suits them. They have no say in the matter either way.

How does unconditional love, grace and acceptance fit in with this scenario, KFC, that such folk will be punished with eternal pain and suffering forever?

Although the following insights run contrary to that particular Christian doctrine, I personally think it’s on the ball: "Nothing that you have ever done or will ever do can mar your perfection in the eyes of God. You're deserving in His eyes because of what you are, not because of what you do. What you do or don't do is not what determines your essential value - your growth, perhaps, but not your value. That’s why God is totally approving and accepting of you, exactly as you are.”

Sorry to get pedantic about that issue, KFC. I obviously need to learn to respect other people’s views more, rather than hitting them over the head. I’m a sucker for logic and realism, to be honest, yet because I personally can’t see much in that particular Christian doctrine, I keep hitting you over the head with it. You'll have to excuse me. (I love you really KFC!)

I’m a sucker for logic and realism,

me too. So we can agree here. I am very much a realist and learning to be more logical. My husband is quite logical and we get into very interesting discussions but in the end...his logic does win out.

As far as only Christ believers going to heaven who else would Christ let in? That was the whole reason he came. To show us the way out. It's just a matter of belief. Who do you say He was? Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Did He deceive, was He deceived or was He deity? That's where it starts. You get to decide.

How many strangers do you let into your home without knowing them? Jesus said that many will be wanting to come in and he will say..."I never knew you." To me that's the saddest part of all. We are given a chance to know the King of the Universe but instead want to be royalty ourselves, put him in a box and put him on a shelf while we don our purple robes and crowns and go about our merry way. We pull Him down to blame Him for all that's going on in the world but we never want to give Him credit for anything else.

We don't need God, cuz in our little corner of our worlds, we are gods. That's the lie that started right in the beginning in the garden. "You shall be as god." Ya, right. People have been buying that one hook, line and sinker ever since.

You'll have to excuse me. (I love you really KFC!

Me too Andy......While I don't agree with you on some things...doesn't mean I don't like discussing with ya!!

While I don't agree with you on some things...doesn't mean I don't like discussing with ya!!

Me too KFC. God and religion is always a good discussion, and I wouldn't tire of it.

As far as only Christ believers going to heaven who else would Christ let in? That was the whole reason he came. To show us the way out. It's just a matter of belief. Who do you say He was? Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Did He deceive, was He deceived or was He deity? That's where it starts. You get to decide.

Yes, I agree that Christ was / is God, the Word incarnate. His life and the events in his life, including the crucifixion, expressed some significant and profound insights into the nature of God. Jesus came to earth to represent the Divine Himself, and expressed and embodied some interesting teachings – primarily that God is a personal, loving God, and also that God intimately participates in, and understands, our tribulations and suffering on earth. I think that these are significant and true revelations.

in our little corner of our worlds, we are gods. That's the lie that started right in the beginning in the garden. "You shall be as god." Ya, right. People have been buying that one hook, line and sinker ever since.

What’s your interpretation of what Jesus said in John 10.34: “Is it not written, ‘Ye are Gods’?”, referring to Psalm 82.6?

This is primarily an Eastern teaching, one that I adhere to. It’s also aligned with Jesus’ words in John 17.23, that we are “one” with each other and one with God, and is also aligned with the principle that we are created “in the image and likeness of God”.

If you think about it logically from a theistic perspective, it can’t be any other way. Consider the principle that God is the infinite Source. God simply Is – the “I AM” - which happens to be Spirit. When God creates us, we have to come from God’s own essence, or substance. It is in this sense that we are gods.

To use an analogy, consider a tub of washing up liquid. If you dip a little hoop into the liquid and blow gently, bubbles will appear, which will float around in their own merry way. Even though the bubbles seem to be separate, or individual entities, (which they are), at the same time they are the liquid. They all came from the same source, and are made from the same ‘stuff’.

In a similar way, we are made from ‘God stuff’. When God creates us, His children, or offspring, we are like the bubbles. But God is much deeper and broader than the ocean. Because “God is Spirit”, we are created as individual spiritual beings, made in God’s image and likeness, and we can consciously get on with life’s adventures, learning and growing, and making choices along the way.

Regarding the doctrine that non-Christians will be punished in hellfire forever, I personally don’t believe that the Bible is infallible. We hit too many logical and moral contradictions if we believe that it is. Some parts of the Bible are inspired by man’s ego and insecurities, rather than by God’s Spirit, in my view. In order to discern which verses are aligned with Truth and which aren’t, I believe that we can get in touch with the Holy Spirit, and get some guidance from Him.

The Jesus that I’ve come to know and love in my heart wouldn’t punish innocent, good hearted people in hellfire for ever, just because they didn’t adhere to a certain point of view. (One that they had no say about in the first place, incidentally). But that’s just my point of view, and I'm sure many Christians would disagree with me.

What’s your interpretation of what Jesus said in John 10.34: “Is it not written, ‘Ye are Gods’?”, referring to Psalm 82.6?

I just answered someone on this just recently. Oh I think it was ParaTed. Yes. Well what Jesus was saying was if God can call your unjust Judges gods, and pronounce judgment against them then certainly the Jews should not get upset because he calls himself the Son of God. Basically by quoting this he's saying that if humans can be called "gods" than certainly the Messiah can be called God.

No where in scripture does it say we are to become gods. That was Satan's carrot on the stick. He was the one that wanted to become God. Read Isaiah 14 for more on this.

I personally don’t believe that the Bible is infallible

Why? Is it because you don't like part of what it says? What do you do with the more than 60 predictions in the OT on the person of Christ that came true? Every single prophetic scripture predicting his first coming was fulfilled. So I'm of the idea that those scriptures that predict his second coming and what is about to happen also are going to come true. I'm already seeing that now with what's going on in the Middle East. So far so good. It's all coming together as predicted. The countries are lined up pretty much as Ezek said they would be.

There are, in fact, literally hundreds of prophecies which predict future events. The idea that the fulfillment of the predictions as a result of coincidence or chance is absurd, in light of the evidence. God has given sufficient evidence of His existence and of the divine inspiration of the scriptures by means of fulfilled prophecy. And we haven't seen nothing yet.

Some parts of the Bible are inspired by man’s ego and insecurities, rather than by God’s Spirit, in my view

What parts?

I'm sure many Christians would disagree with me.

ya, I'd be one of them Andy!!

It’s also aligned with Jesus’ words in John 17.23, that we are “one” with each other and one with God

What scripture says is that we are "all one" in Christ Jesus and united by His spirit. He's the common denomiator.

Yes, I agree that Christ was / is God, the Word incarnate. His life and the events in his life, including the crucifixion, expressed some significant and profound insights into the nature of God. Jesus came to earth to represent the Divine Himself, and expressed and embodied some interesting teachings – primarily that God is a personal, loving God, and also that God intimately participates in, and understands, our tribulations and suffering on earth. I think that these are significant and true revelations.

No problem here. Now you're talking my language!!



Blessings Andy

What parts?

I’m sure you know that already KFC. I’ve repeated myself a lot of times already on these pages.

I personally don’t believe that the Bible is infallible

Why? Is it because you don't like part of what it says?

Babe, your views are nicely aligned with what the Bible says. As long as you can accept that other people’s views might differ from the Bible, or might go beyond it, then that’s cool.

I’ve just written a two page response to your reply, but realised that I’m just saying the same stuff I’ve already written on other posts, (surprise surprise!), only in different ways. We’re going round in circles with this issue KFC, about the Bible. Shall we break out the circle here?

that last post didn't update the time, for some reason. Maybe that answered my question!?

Babe, your views are nicely aligned with what the Bible says

well it's what I aim for Andy. You are what you eat after all....spiritual food is just as important, if not more so, than physical food!! So the overflow you see is because my heart is full and it's just bound to spill over.

As long as you can accept that other people’s views might differ from the Bible, or might go beyond it, then that’s cool.

To some degree yes I do. But I love people too much to leave them there. But if they say "enough" than I stop. I'm not sure what you mean by "go beyond it." I'm one that doesn't go beyond what is written. Otherwise I could just start making up stuff.

Shall we break out the circle here?

sure thing Andy. Catch ya later!!