Interesting Article. Thanks Andy. I will say that some of it is thought provoking.

AD

Thanks AD, no probs. It's nice to hear from you

Let me get back to you. I will book mark this and respond, probably tomorrow.

There is a field of scholarship called "textual criticism". It is a rigorous method for studying and interpreting works produced by other people in other times and places. It is used extensively by serious scholars seeking a more deep and accurate understanding of Shakespeare, Homer, etc., as well as the Christian Bible, of course.

As it turns out, there are all sorts of ways you can tell how a text was meant to be read, and how it was meant to be interpreted.

The only problem with the system of your last comment. Live in Grace, forgiveness and acceptance.
Many preachers like the Fire and Brimstone sermons. Many like the life lessons which conflict with "acceptance".

If we all love and accept equally, not conditional on the Faith we have at the moment, then I am all for it.
Now enter the Real World: You didnt' go to church last sunday, what are you becoming an atheist?
Critisism, Gossip, and more Critisism from Church organizations which are responsible and instigate this evil just so that you feel your made to come back each Sunday because of:
Guilt, Fear of what people may think, or anything that is similar.
I petition that Churches in some cases do more harm than good. But in the rare cases that they do good, we can at least respect the few that are small and don't have these issues.
Any big church has its problems. Over 50 people.

Oh, and id you guys know that the book of Job is actually written before genesis?
It wasn't even a Jewish book. The land of Uz is thought to be of the gentiles.

Regards,
Fox

believe that our interpretation of Scripture is a more organic, flowing (and even a growing) process than many Christians claim.

Understand that being a Catholic, I do not believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible.  So I picked that statement out to comment upon.  You may be right, but one of the most conservative things in the world is religion.  It barely changes with the times.  And that is actually a good thing.  What good would religion be if it swayed with the public mood? (Situational Ethics comes to mind as well as the gray of moral superiorists).

Some point to the Catholic Church as being one of the most liberal (outside the abortion issue) of the Christian denominations.  Yet in reality, it is very conservative theologically.  Why?  It has barely changed in the last 300 years (and most of those were cosmetic).  So while I understand your point, I dont see most Christian religions agreeing with you.

Understand that being a Catholic, I do not believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible. So I picked that statement out to comment upon. You may be right, but one of the most conservative things in the world is religion. It barely changes with the times. And that is actually a good thing. What good would religion be if it swayed with the public mood? (Situational Ethics comes to mind as well as the gray of moral superiorists). Some point to the Catholic Church as being one of the most liberal (outside the abortion issue) of the Christian denominations. Yet in reality, it is very conservative theologically. Why? It has barely changed in the last 300 years (and most of those were cosmetic). So while I understand your point, I dont see most Christian religions agreeing with you.

I agree with you Dr. I’m sure most Christians don’t agree with me on most the stuff I write. But it’s how I see things anyway.

I too think that it’s a good thing that religion barely changes, and I'm sure it won't change much. I believe that what can change, (and I’m sure will change over the next few centuries), however, is our interpretation of traditional doctrine. Advancements in science and technology have significantly broadened the world’s outlook since Christianity’s early days. The internet and the media, for example, has made it possible for us to appreciate fully the vast range of world cultures and religious faiths. And as humanity’s awareness continues to rise, (it seems to be happening exponentially every decade), I don’t believe that our original interpretation of religious doctrines can stand much longer in the face of reality. (7 day Creation etc.)

Yet this is natural and to be expected, as it's due to humanity's growth and learning. But rather than undermining our traditional doctrines, I believe that new interpretations will uphold them, enrich them, and will come full circle, illuminating the deeper meanings implicit within our sacred texts. I’m convinced that religion won’t change at its core, yet we’ll eventually see it through ‘new eyes’, so to speak, wiser and more mature, in my opinion.

In the words of T.S. Eliot, “We must not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we began, and to know the place for the first time.”

I believe that St. Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 13.12 are significant and deep, and can be applied to humanity’s growth as a whole: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

If we all love and accept equally, not conditional on the Faith we have at the moment, then I am all for it. Now enter the Real World: You didnt' go to church last sunday, what are you becoming an atheist? Critisism, Gossip, and more Critisism from Church organizations which are responsible and instigate this evil just so that you feel your made to come back each Sunday because of: Guilt, Fear of what people may think, or anything that is similar.

You’re right Foxjazz. And this is what puts most people off religion. But you’re talking about today’s times, and there’s clearly room for growth. I believe that spiritual growth naturally leads in the direction of acceptance, understanding, compassion, humility, goodwill etc. ("the fruits of the Spirit", as St. Paul says.) But there's growing pains in the meantime, for sure.

If we are to live together on earth in peace, and if our religions are to blossom in the true spirit of understanding, it is apparent that some things need to change. I’m sure the only changed needed is our interpretation of life, religion, and the sciences.
I pray that the deeper consonance between all world faiths will become apparent and more widely-realised as humanity’s spiritual awareness rises. There is no need to renounce any of our world faiths. On the contrary. They can be affirmed as we renounce the barriers caused by closed minds and a lack of understanding. Only then can we fully embrace the love of God and our fellow men from within the grounds of our own religious traditions.

Overall, I believe that the nature of Spirit - and the human spirit – is “flowing”, “dynamic” and “organic” etc, and that our experience of the Bible can follow suit.

(hope you don't mind, but I want to put a copyright on this stuff as I've taken some from my book. Copyright © 2006 Andrew Baker All rights reserved. February 8, 2006)

How very diplomatic of you.
If we adhere to traditions, what about witch burning traditions?
What about mentioning the sheer evil that Biblical teachings insite in others.
Iraq is full of suicide bomber examples. Albiet that is the Koran's teachings.

Why is it that the Catholic church hasn't changed in over 300 yeas. Maybe its because they elect over 70year old human Popes. At that age, humans are regulary resistant to change.
Go try changing your granfather's mind about something.

Human societies are flowing, and dynamic. Man is much simpler. The church is made of men and is like a society. In order for church to succede, it must have influence and income. Otherwise the church dies. I mean wasn't that what theh Crusade's were about in the first place? That particular problem will never change, no matter how much diplomatic rhetoric, or how much spirituallity you gain in your lifetime.

Religion is the prime mover of Evil in all cultures I have exprienced.
I have never met an atheist who kills for the motive of: "well your not part of my team"

As much as I would love to believe that sprituallity will bring you peace, it is much more likely that it brings us death because of the Historical evidence.
Read some Thomas Paine (the age of reason) it may enlighten your soul.

Why is it that the Catholic church hasn't changed in over 300 yeas. Maybe its because they elect over 70year old human Popes. At that age, humans are regulary resistant to change. Go try changing your granfather's mind about something.

A couple of things.  First, JPII was in his 50s when elected.  So scratch the 70 year old stuff.  Second, during the worst episodes of the Church, it was being run by a bunch of middle aged men.  So the more mature ones have the wisdom often lacking in the younger ones.  Hence the reason the older ones are elected Pope. 

Finally spirituality does bring peace.  Corruption and distorting it is what is used to bring death.  No one is arguing that terrible things have not been done in the name of religion in the past.  However, religion, being a creation of man, progresses as man does.  From infancy, through adolescence and into adult hood.  The Church had its adolescence.  Now it has the maturity of age and wisdom.  Yet you want to keep looking at it as a petulant adolescent.

Dr guy, I sure hopa what you say is true.

There have been 50 year old grandfathers. That is agout the norm to be seriously set in your ways.

Spirituality in many cases may bring peace, but not in all cases. It is power and intent at the top, which insite your Corruption and evil intentions of Leaders. And that is just it, being a leader alone for a bunch of others can bring corrupt power. And this can happen in any place in the world.

This is why I strongly advocate teaching Logical Reasoning in Schools. Something I had to learn on my own.

If there were ever a religion that was spiritually mature, its Buddhism. Although I don't understand the attraction, it alone is the most healing religion I have experienced.
Because Christianity is Bible based, and non changing, It alone can never achieve what you call a maturity of age and wisdom religion.

The reason I say that is simple. The Bible is full of real world contradictions. Yet people of some take it literal (fundies for example).
And if you can't use reason as your litmus test, you can argue slippery slopes, that it is the people at the top controling your beliefs that make it
utterly dangerous.

I’ve got a lot to say about these views, some of which I’ve said before (in different ways), but I want to express it anyway, as it’s been bubbling up inside me. I know that some people might not agree with it, or might not be interested, or will think I’m just being arrogant. But this topic is my primary passion, and these are my views anyway,

If we adhere to traditions, what about witch burning traditions?

Foxjazz, I was referring more to our world’s organised religions, and to our more traditional religious revelations and practices. Witch burning traditions haven’t survived the test of time, in the popular mind at least, for good reason.

Religion is the prime mover of Evil in all cultures I have experienced

You’re talking about the way things have been so far, and in some instances the way things still are today. But I think that things can change. Christians have changed their attitude and outlook a lot since the old days of the Christian Crusades, when millions of people were killed in the name of the Christian God. But the Bible is the same now as it was then. (Verses like Exodus 32:27-29, for example, might have prompted a crusade-like mindset).

The trend seems to be that things can get better. As long as we believe in the principle that ‘might is right’, and that the Bible has to be interpreted through a shallow, literal lens, and that only one particular religion is right, whilst all others are viewpoints are wrong, and that God will punish (with eternal damnation) all other folk who don’t share our own particular point of view, then we cannot expect anything but friction, intolerance, and lack of understanding.

If Christians pick holes in the Qur’an in order to show that the Muslim God encourages evil and war, then it’s really a case of the pot calling the kettle black. (For reasons why see the review cut pasted on another thread in reply #113 https://forums.joeuser.com/Forums.aspx?ForumID=65&AID=98377#776373 .)

Even though we can rightly conclude that there is a lot more to the Bible than such verses, it is true that the same can be said about the Qur’ran.

I believe that our world faiths are really harmonious allies, which together expand human understanding beyond the scope of an individual faith system alone. I think it would serve us to broaden our scope, and to ‘zoom out’ our view, so to speak, in order for us to see more clearly the deeper common ground that exists within our religious revelations - and that includes the larger spectrum of wisdom from East to West.

Due to the natural laws of growth, and due to the nature of Ultimate Reality, I am sure that humanity will eventually learn that love is the answer. In the meantime, our Father in Heaven surely accepts us and loves us just as we are, and chooses not to interfere with our learning curves. God knows that a greater good will arise because of all our experiences on earth, rather than in spite of them – regardless of how absurd or grim things might seem in the midst of life.

The Bible teaches that God is not distant or removed from our pain and suffering. Jesus’ crucifixion discloses that God intimately participates in the world’s tribulation and pain. The resurrection of Christ, and the subsequent ascension, illustrates that life continues after death, and that the next world (i.e. the next dimension), is a new Creation of wholeness and perfection.

In the meantime, however, "There is a season and a time for every purpose under Heaven”, (Ecclesiastes 3.1), and as Jesus Himself exclaimed, “In the world you will have tribulation. But be of good cheer. I have overcome the world.”( John 16.33)

Because Christianity is Bible based, and non changing, It alone can never achieve what you call a maturity of age and wisdom religion.

I disagree. But I believe that in order for our Biblical interpretations to become more aligned with reality, (i.e. with ‘The Truth’), we first need to go out and explore - openly and honestly - our neighbouring religious revelations - and our scientific discoveries - in order to become more open minded and understanding, and to see more clearly how we fit into the bigger picture. With a good balance, and rooted in a deeper sense of security, we can then begin to extract some good fodder and deeper wisdom - which I believe is to be shared, not hoarded - from our religious neighbours (especially from the East, and I also think Christians can garner a lot from the Qur’an’s description of the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden), and then bring it ‘back home’ to our Christian tradition, in order for the deeper meanings inherent within Biblical doctrines to be enriched and illuminated by them. (At the risk of pushing my views too much, I described the Qur'an's take on Adam and Eve in reply #11 on KFC's article The Genesis Account https://forums.joeuser.com/Forums.aspx?ForumID=65&AID=95466#755564 )

I personally think that we can adhere to the words of philosopher Guillaume Apollinaire:

“Come to the cliff, he said.
They said, we are afraid.
Come to the cliff, he said.
They came.
He pushed them.
And they flew.”

At the moment, I think that the vast majority of Christians are happy to remain safely in their present mindset, adhering to traditional and familiar interpretations. This isn’t a bad thing, as I think that it’s wise to stay put if we’re not yet ready to go anywhere. But I am sure that in the next few centuries, as humanity’s spiritual awareness continues to rise, and as our perspective of reality naturally broadens and deepens, Christians will have no choice other than to change their basic paradigms and interpretations of traditional doctrine, in the name of Truth.

I am convinced that because of this, and not in spite of it, when the time is right – and not before – Christianity will take off, and will fly higher than any of us can imagine. I know that the Bible is loaded with wisdom and with great revelations of divine Truth, and I believe that in order for these revelations to make sense of reality, they can be interpreted through an epic scope, as opposed to a tin pot scope that turns a blind eye to most of reality.

The future looks good for Christianity in my view. Religious fundamentalism is really the search for security, and even though I believe that it is on shaky grounds in its present form, we can actually afford to be infinitely secure in our religious beliefs. I am convinced that when the popular mind finally returns to central Christian revelations - with new positive eyesight - fundamentalism will have its time, and when it blossoms, its scent will be nothing short of divine.

Hi Andy,

Interesting.....

so....your parents are like me? Hmmmm? So what happened to you? hehehehehe

As you know...I'm a literalist but I do believe scripture is both symbololic and literal. When it makes sense...seek no other sense is what I adhere to.

I agree with Fox. Job is the oldest book in the bible. The really neat thing in it is all the science. How could Job have known those things if not inspired by God?

And I agree totally with you Andy....the gospel is good news. But not everyone thinks so.

I like what Joshua said. "Choose you this day whom you shall serve, but for me and my house....we will serve the Lord."

Hi KFC,

Yes, my parents are fundies, so they’re similar to you. Although they don’t talk much about their views, so there's a few differences

So what happened to you? hehehehehe

God knows what happened to me babe, but I'm sure I’m a fundie at heart.

When it makes sense...seek no other sense is what I adhere to.

Yes. One thing we need to remember KFC, is that everyone has different opinions and views, so what makes sense to one person might not make sense to another, or at least something else might make better sense to them. Dogmatic assertions about the Bible are therefore mostly futile, and cause a lot of friction.

Still, nothing wrong with sharing views, and I say keep it up.

Thanks Andy,

I know that. Afterall you and I don't always see eye to eye. But I love ya anyhow!!!

I agree with all you said here. But If I'm going to offend....it's not going to be Christ. I'm trying to be patient and I've backed off way back because I know when something's not wanted but if assertions are made I will defend.

Jesus said his words would offend and that he came not to unite but to divide. It's not that I'm trying to do that but it does come out that way from time to time. Look what they did to the apostles. All were killed but one. John the baptist also. Look what they did to the Prophet Jeremiah. Noah was laughed at. Elijah was running for his life quite often. David too. Paul said he was beaten 5 times, stoned once (and I don't mean crack) left to die in the water, jailed more than once, robbed, escaped the King by being let down in a basket. Everyone wanted him to shut up and die.

But I like what he said at the end in 2 Cor 11:31..."The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ which is blessed for evermore, knows that I lie not."

While I'm nowhere near these greats...I do take solace in that I'm in good company. Jesus said..."You will be hated for my sake."

I'm just "kickin for Christ."

Nice one KFC, I love you too. I love all on JU, (that sounds sickly, but it's true!)